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Matt John S

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23 hours ago, Ken said:

 

1. Since victory points are capped at 4, the heroes probably won't agree unless they lose one of the first two scenarios and they want to try to make up for one. At least it makes for a meaningful decision. Of course, completionists will play the scenario regardless.

As someone who has lost the 1st 2 scenarios as the heroes, the opportunity to gain 1 point would be tempting.

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@Footballzs

Thank you for your continued feedback and playtesting. It is appreciated. That is a useful piece of insight concerning the optional sceanrio. There is potential incentive for the Heroes to take the risk. Hope to hear more from you soon.

 

@Ken

I understand that the rewards are capped at 4 victory points. But the points themselves don't necessarily have to be capped. A simple solution could be to change the cap from 4 to 4+. This allows for a couple extra victory points.  In the current case 1 or 2 (if we allow the optional scenario) more for the Heroes since the Overlord doesn't really get an opportunity for a couple extra. Which, now that I mention it, may be problematic, though I do have another optional sceanrio in the works, maybe that could be tweaked to allow an extra VP opportunity for the OL. (Again, I don't want to derail the main focus of completing the campaign)

 

FYI I am going to focus on running through the entire campaign starting next week. So hopefully I'll gain some insight as to how these progression elements will play out.

 

EDIT: I just had another thought concerning the optional sceanrio. What if we tweaked the conditions of the option? Instead of both sides agreeing to play it, for example, we change it to if the Heroes are losing by 2 VP they MAY choose to play it or if the Heroes gain 3 carry over items then the OL MAY choose to play it. This makes the option more strategic and flexible and potentially usable at anytime before the end.

Edited by drmauric

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On 7/26/2018 at 6:58 PM, Ken said:

 

@Matt John S @Neil Amswych @Primeval @drmauric

 

Here are my thoughts:

 

1. Since victory points are capped at 4, the heroes probably won't agree unless they lose one of the first two scenarios and they want to try to make up for one. At least it makes for a meaningful decision. Of course, completionists will play the scenario regardless.

 

Honestly, I'm not mad on the idea of the extra scenario. I really liked the idea very early on of having the Kushite Witch Hunters be a running theme throughout the campaign. I'd rather save them for another campaign. Sorry, because I know that not likely to be a popular opinion but there's so much that's exciting and new in this campaign that I think we should save the Witch Hunters for another time.

 

On 7/26/2018 at 6:58 PM, Ken said:

 

2. Speaking of victory points, scenario 2 has the potential to grant the heroes 2 victory points in addition to 2 legacy weapons. Should we consider leaving the VPs at 1 and have the carryover items (or lack thereof) be their own reward?

 

You've reminded me that I need to clarify that they can't grab an item, lose the scenario and keep it, as they would for equipment. They have to get them out of the city. It's VERY unlikely that the heroes will get the two Victory Points from Fight or Flight. The safe bet is one.

 

On 7/26/2018 at 6:58 PM, Ken said:

 

3. Speaking further of victory points, has anybody tried playtesting under victory point conditions? I pity the player/team who has 0 and goes against a player/team who has 4.

 

Nope, sorry.

 

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On 7/29/2018 at 1:35 AM, Neil Amswych said:

 

Honestly, I'm not mad on the idea of the extra scenario. I really liked the idea very early on of having the Kushite Witch Hunters be a running theme throughout the campaign. I'd rather save them for another campaign. Sorry, because I know that not likely to be a popular opinion but there's so much that's exciting and new in this campaign that I think we should save the Witch Hunters for another time.

 

 

 @Neil Amswych

 

Thanks for the response. It's a valid point.  And it's true enough that we have plenty of exciting and new things to wrap up in this one first.

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On 7/30/2018 at 3:36 AM, drmauric said:

 @Neil Amswych

 

Thanks for the response. It's a valid point.  And it's true enough that we have plenty of exciting and new things to wrap up in this one first.

 

To me, what could be really exciting would be a Witch Hunter campaign using the spells we hardly ever see. There are some great spells out there and I think that would be a whole new adventure in and of itself. 

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@Ken @Neil Amswych @Primeval @Matt John S

 

I misspoke in my previous post. I am at the point of the campaign where I am assigning rewards and Ken was right, the chart is set up for 4 victory points. 2 VP will be assigned in Fight or Flight. If Heroes win and get the Medallion they get 2. If the Overlord wins he gets 2. If the Heroes win but do not get the Medallion each player gets 1 VP.

 

So it does need to be adjusted to reflect that because for example I finished scenario 4 with Heroes at 3 and Overlord at 2.  Which is the same as a 2 to 2 tie in our chart, just more annoying to figure out. Seriously, I was frustrated with our own chart! LOL! (it's fine if we use it as is at 4VP, but with the 5 VPs there was a lot of cross referencing and double checking to figure it out. So imagine what players besides us will think.) Our current chart only allows for 5 outcomes if I counted right.  The addition of the 5th VP adds more/different outcomes and makes many of the outcomes on the current chart pretty much the same, usually the same reward as a 2/2 tie.

 

So I think we need to restructure the chart to account for the extra VP's.  Maybe some thing like the following, it keeps the basic structure, you just don't get rewarded for 1VP, can't just slither by, Crom won't let you 🙂  Probably will need to be 2 separate charts, because you will, for example, never have a 4 to 2 after the 4th scenario.

Heroes                                                       Overlord

0-1      None                                            5VP  +1 Armor +1 Yellow Die

2-3    +1 armor                                        4VP +1 Armor +1 Yellow Die

4VP  +1 Armor +1 reroll                        2-3 VP +1 Armor                     

5VP +1 Reroll and +1 Armor                0-1 VP None

 

We should also consider including printable cards for the reward levels to place on the table, because these rewards could be easy to overlook.

 

I will probably run my final scenario using the new chart in the next couple days, unless you guys detect a fatal flaw in it.  Then I will report on the campaign as a whole!

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1 hour ago, drmauric said:

@Ken @Neil Amswych @Primeval @Matt John S

 

I misspoke in my previous post. I am at the point of the campaign where I am assigning rewards and Ken was right, the chart is set up for 4 victory points. 2 VP will be assigned in Fight or Flight. If Heroes win and get the Medallion they get 2. If the Overlord wins he gets 2. If the Heroes win but do not get the Medallion each player gets 1 VP.

 

So it does need to be adjusted to reflect that because for example I finished scenario 4 with Heroes at 3 and Overlord at 2.  Which is the same as a 2 to 2 tie in our chart, just more annoying to figure out. Seriously, I was frustrated with our own chart! LOL! (it's fine if we use it as is at 4VP, but with the 5 VPs there was a lot of cross referencing and double checking to figure it out. So imagine what players besides us will think.) Our current chart only allows for 5 outcomes if I counted right.  The addition of the 5th VP adds more/different outcomes and makes many of the outcomes on the current chart pretty much the same, usually the same reward as a 2/2 tie.

 

So I think we need to restructure the chart to account for the extra VP's.  Maybe some thing like the following, it keeps the basic structure, you just don't get rewarded for 1VP, can't just slither by, Crom won't let you 🙂  Probably will need to be 2 separate charts, because you will, for example, never have a 4 to 2 after the 4th scenario.

Heroes                                                       Overlord

0-1      None                                            5VP  +1 Armor +1 Yellow Die

2-3    +1 armor                                        4VP +1 Armor +1 Yellow Die

4VP  +1 Armor +1 reroll                        2-3 VP +1 Armor                     

5VP +1 Reroll and +1 Armor                0-1 VP None

 

We should also consider including printable cards for the reward levels to place on the table, because these rewards could be easy to overlook.

 

I will probably run my final scenario using the new chart in the next couple days, unless you guys detect a fatal flaw in it.  Then I will report on the campaign as a whole!

 

a) I still think legacy loot is enough reward without also granting VP. That being said, your chart seems fine given our current situation.

 

b) Looking at this chart, I think "None" might be too severe for someone who has already lost 4 games and is preparing to go up against someone with extra armor & dice/rerolls. What does everyone think about giving a consolation prize? Like 3 bonus gems instead of "None"?

 

 

 

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I am inclined to agree with Ken on letting the loot be it's own reward. Dropping back to 4 VP simplifies the chart and keeps both sides on pace with each other.

 

And that's a great point about one side getting no reward. I think this may be why Monolith steers clear of leveling up. It's hard to keep the balance and still make the reward for doing well meaningful. If both sides are rewarded evenly, it's a wash, why not just toss the rewards? But if one side is so far ahead of the other, that's no fun either, which is the case if someone gains 4+ VP.

 

I don't have an answer to that either way. One part of me says toss the whole reward chart, the other wants to figure out how to make it meaningful, balanced and exciting. hmmm.

 

One thought is maybe the VP translates into bonus gems for the final battle instead of the armor/reroll/die rewards. 

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On 7/28/2018 at 7:07 PM, drmauric said:

@Footballzs

Thank you for your continued feedback and playtesting. It is appreciated. That is a useful piece of insight concerning the optional sceanrio. There is potential incentive for the Heroes to take the risk. Hope to hear more from you soon.

Thanks for your kind words. Also my playtesting is on hold as I am currently holidaying in Vietnam.

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3 hours ago, Footballzs said:

Thanks for your kind words. Also my playtesting is on hold as I am currently holidaying in Vietnam.

Enjoy your holiday!

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So I am hoping to actually run the final sceanrio twice this weekend. First with the rewards chart as is.

 

And second using a new idea. I am going to translate the VP into bonus gems. I think I will multiply by 2. So right now the score is Heroes 3 Overlord 2. So Heroes will get 6 and Overlord will get 4 plus the bonus gems from the results of scenario 4. Since the Overlord won scenario 4 the total Bonus Gem count for the final battle will be Heroes 7, Overlord 6.

 

This idea would allow for the extra VP in Fight or Flight with out messing with things late in our process.

 

 It also minimizes book keeping so to speak, meaning you don't have to remember the reward each time, free reroll on every action, extra die etc. It also should be fairly easy on the final scenario balance. When you consider adding an extra armor point to every Overlord tile or Hero, that could have some unforeseen results. Like spending extra gems just to take out a low level minion may prolong the game. Extra Armor on the Dark Demon or Hadrathus with Mitra's Halo could make them darn near invulnerable.

Turning the VP into bonus gems actually allows for any of the rewards, but at the players discretion. Extra guard action, extra reroll etc but at the critical moment. This could make for very exciting climatic game play.

 

I'll let you know how it goes.

 

(I know we already have a gem shortage for The Trap. We will just have to include some suggestions for tracking. Maybe on the turn track. If we decide to go this route.)

Edited by drmauric
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4 hours ago, drmauric said:

And second using a new idea. I am going to translate the VP into bonus gems. I think I will multiply by 2. So right now the score is Heroes 3 Overlord 2. So Heroes will get 6 and Overlord will get 4 plus the bonus gems from the results of scenario 4. Since the Overlord won scenario 4 the total Bonus Gem count for the final battle will be Heroes 7, Overlord 6.

 

Sounds good. I know we are turning the whole victory point idea on its head, but I am anxious to see how it plays out. Thanks for doing this.

 

We probably won't hear back from Matt until after Gen Con, though, so any final decisions might be a ways off.

 

4 hours ago, drmauric said:

(I know we already have a gem shortage for The Trap. We will just have to include some suggestions for tracking. Maybe on the turn track. If we decide to go this route.)

 

I will probably use ompahlos from Mythic Battles Pantheon, but Conan comes with a ton of tokens (rocks, webs, etc.). Maybe we could recommend one of them.

 

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If you guys want me to change the reward in Fight or Flight just let me know. The idea behind the way it was originally written is because the heroes don't yet know how important the Xuthal's Crown is going to be, but if they think there's 1VP in it, they're more likely to go for it. But if you'd rather me write it differently in terms of reward, just let me know what to change it to. Thanks.

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5 hours ago, Neil Amswych said:

If you guys want me to change the reward in Fight or Flight just let me know. The idea behind the way it was originally written is because the heroes don't yet know how important the Xuthal's Crown is going to be, but if they think there's 1VP in it, they're more likely to go for it. But if you'd rather me write it differently in terms of reward, just let me know what to change it to. Thanks.

 

@Neil Amswych

 

It's that narrative element exactly that made me rethink our reward system. I get that the importance of the Crown has to be communicated. However, the 5th VP knocks the reward chart out of wack.  Maybe this VP to Bonus Gem idea will help navigate us around that. In fact the 5th VP will help ensure that there won't be a tie, so it could be a good thing. So there might not need to be a change to your scenario.

 

@all 

But we need feedback on both options. So it would be helpful for anyone who can to take some time and run one of the final scenarios using the 4pt chart or the bonus gem idea. 

 

I am still hopeing to do that this weekend.

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CAMPAIGN REPORT

I was able to test through the entire campaign over this past week

 

Scenario 1- Heroes won and retrieved both the Spellbook and 1st Xuthal's Crown

 

Scenario 2- I choose at the beginning to ignore the Medallion and the 2nd Crown. This was a deliberate choice in order to test an unlikely situation. Since the Heroes were up 1 VP I wanted to go for the easy win and split the VPs and still be ahead. It went exactly like that. Pretty easy victory for the Heroes. But testing this route also highlighted the supreme importance of the 2nd Crown and the Medallion. I really wished the Heroes had them in the final scenario.  I think your extra VP may have convinced me of it's motivational importance.

 

Scenario 3- Heroes won, sending them to The Streets of Khemi for the final scenario

 

Scenario 4- Overlord won, giving him Atali in the final battle.

 

So the final score going into the final battle was Heroes 3 and Overlord 2.  The Heroes had 1 Xuthal"s Crown and the Spell Book.  The Overlord had Atali.

 

I used the 4pt chart that is in the campaign PDF. This gave the Heroes +1 Armor and +1 Reroll.  The Overlord had +1 Armor and +1 Yellow die.

 

Final Battle 1 with the rewards:

This worked way better than I thought it would. Due to the rewards each side had they were able to keep pace with each other. The game played very much like the multiple playtests I had done on this one.  Meaning it wasn't knocked out of whack by the rewards.

But it also had some predictable effects. It did slow the game down because each side would have to take a turn to recharge ever couple turns because the gem expenditure to do simple attacks is much higher. Bossonian Guards and Eternal Guards had a 3 armor.  One rather serious problem is that Hadrathus and Thoth Amon are really, really hard to get a good hit on. The Spellbook allows Hadrathus to stay active after casing Mitra's Halo so he pretty much always had a 3 armor (2 for the Halo, 1 for the reward). However the same is true for Thoth Amon. Bori's Rage can't touch him and Lightning Storm (even with a free reroll) is severely weakened, you have to roll high and then the Overlord usually has plenty of gems to defend. Thoth Amon did take a few hits, but those were calculated risks to save gems.

 

Final Battle 2 with Bonus gems:

This wasn't as cool as I hoped.  It was like having  bunch of life potions. Sort of an instant buzz and then it was gone. It didn't have the game enhancing impact that I had anticipated.  After the buzz wore off, the game played out much like the previous play tests.  SO if we wanted a super simple reward system, this was fun but not all that mind blowing. 

 

 

The Overlord won both versions of the Final Battle, and thus the campaign, but it was a great slugfest. Everyone had to be at the top of their game. Lots of creative moves and strategies. It cold have gone either way. Really, I think we have a solid product.

 

I have a few issues that I detected, I will list them below for everyone to update their PDF

 

@Neil Amswych

- Crossbowmen need fixing. The green tile in the editor does not exist in the game. I think it would be best to switch the tile to the gray boarder and the figures to the gray bases.  Red is already being used by the crows. And as you have stated the gray ones statistics are the ones you want.

 

- also an Equipment card from one of the retail boxes should be assigned to the Medallion. The Stygian Artifact is being used in three other scenarios so that is not a good option. Like I've recommended in previous posts, since no retail Equipment card really looks like a Medallion anyway, I would suggest an Amulet fragment from Nordheim.

 

@Primeval

- I would recommend instructing the Overlord to place a token on the area effected by the Bat Swarm, just so wily Heroes don't "forget" to spend the extra movement points.  Perhaps the Green Aura/Energy token?

 

@Matt John S

- I had mentioned that the Mitra's Staff is not a retail component. We talked about switching it to the Buckler. 

- The color of the Aesir ally tile should be mentioned. There are two distinct versions. I assumed you meant the grey boarder ones, because they match the figure icon on the map so that's what I used but it is probably best if it is called out.

- I think it may be worth mentioning that when Thoth Amon is removed from the board that the Overlord does NOT flip his tile. Seems obvious to me that that was the intention, but clarity is always good.

 

@Ken and @all

- I know nothing I mentioned here addresses your concern about one side being ahead 4 (or 5). I can see that being a problem. I can also see the bonus gems as a consolation prize as being a solution.  Maybe someone could run that possibility as a play test?  Maybe if they are that far behind we ought to let them lose, Crom suffers not the weak! (but really from a game stand point I can see how this could suck 🙂

 

@all

- I'd like to hear from others about their experiences with the reward vs. the bonus gem idea , I certainly do not want to speak for everyone.

 

But my compliments to everyone. We are on a good track.  I think after a bit more feedback we may be able to call it done!

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@Matt John S @Neil Amswych @Primeval @Ken @Footballzs 

Hey guys,

Looking to finalize a few things on the Campaign.

#1 Has everyone updated their PDF? (see my previous post) If you have please confirm that yours is finalized.  If you need/want help feel free to use the "share" function in the Editor. "Share" it with me and I can assist.

#2 Here is an updated Reward chart that reflects the 5 VPs and some other ideas. I feel that this new chart combines the best of all our ideas. It also ties nicely into our ongoing Bonus gems and the rewards keep both sides on pace with each other so one side doesn't run away with the campaign. The rewards are interesting without knocking the final scenarios out of balance.

Hero
0-1 VP 3 Bonus Gems
2-4 VP +1 Armor
5 VP+1 Armor +1 Reroll

Overlord
0-1 VP 3 Bonus Gems
2-4 VP +1 Armor
5 VP +1 Armor +1 Yellow Die

Please share your thoughts concerning the new chart.

#3 How do you guys feel about an October deadline? I think we are almost there. A month gives us time to get Footballz feedback, finalize our scenarios and time for Ken to sweeten up the PDF.

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I like the new chart!

 

I agree with the October deadline. It would be nice to see some action on this.

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23 hours ago, Ken said:

I like the new chart!

 

I agree with the October deadline. It would be nice to see some action on this.

I would be able to test the remaining scenarios by then.

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On 8/5/2018 at 1:53 PM, drmauric said:

 

@Neil Amswych

- Crossbowmen need fixing. The green tile in the editor does not exist in the game. I think it would be best to switch the tile to the gray boarder and the figures to the gray bases.  Red is already being used by the crows. And as you have stated the gray ones statistics are the ones you want.

 

- also an Equipment card from one of the retail boxes should be assigned to the Medallion. The Stygian Artifact is being used in three other scenarios so that is not a good option. Like I've recommended in previous posts, since no retail Equipment card really looks like a Medallion anyway, I would suggest an Amulet fragment from Nordheim.

 

 

I'm totally swamped right now so I rather need to pass this over to you guys for help. Being colourblind I can't see the grey tiles. And aren't the Javelin Throwers grey? (Yes, I'm that colourblind). Going to need some directed help, please, so I can wrap this up.

 

Thanks

Edited by Neil Amswych
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5 hours ago, Neil Amswych said:

 

I'm totally swamped right now so I rather need to pass this over to you guys for help. Being colourblind I can't see the grey tiles. And aren't the Javelin Throwers grey? (Yes, I'm that colourblind). Going to need some directed help, please, so I can wrap this up.

 

Thanks

I can help with that, no problem. I sent you a PM via Facebook. Thanks.

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Hey all, sorry for being absent. I have been up to my eyeballs in work (when I wasn't in Hawaii), but have finished my edits on Dreams of Atali. I believe @Ken can now access it via the link? Let me know if not. I think we've done some great work here. Once Ken has it compiled in a beautiful little package we'll upload it on this site and I'll advertise it via offical Monolith channels. I'm also talking with the team about what other form this campaign may take. I'll get into details when/if I have them 😉

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On 8/31/2018 at 2:58 PM, Matt John S said:

Hey all, sorry for being absent. I have been up to my eyeballs in work (when I wasn't in Hawaii), but have finished my edits on Dreams of Atali. I believe @Ken can now access it via the link? Let me know if not. I think we've done some great work here. Once Ken has it compiled in a beautiful little package we'll upload it on this site and I'll advertise it via offical Monolith channels. I'm also talking with the team about what other form this campaign may take. I'll get into details when/if I have them 😉

 

So, is this actually an official Monolith campaign? Or is it a fan-made campaign that Monolith allow to happen? It would be nice if Monolith could say, "Hey everyone, here's our new campaign, and the awesome thing is that it was fan-made, so here it is." Is that possible?

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