Pamplerousse Posted August 20, 2019 Report Share Posted August 20, 2019 Hello, I was in summer vacation. Sorry for the delay. (I'm not an employee of Monolith, I'm doing it on my spare time). @Johnnymaxx About the elevation informations, we plan to do something from the start but it takes some times. I'll write here when I have more informations about that. @Carquinyoli About the subway map , 1) Z-D LoS touch the wall, even if it's just a little, it's how the rule works, that's why Z-D is wrong and Z-between the 2 wagons is right. 2)There are 3 ways to have a LoS : - 1) Separated by an orange line It's not OK for Z-A line - 2) Centers of zone share a letter It's not OK for Z-A line - 3) You can draw a line between the 2 centers without crossing a wall Z-A line cross a wagon wall, so it's not ok. So there are no LoS between Z and A For Z-B and Z-C, a letter is shared. All the boards have been double checked by Monolith but a mistake can still be there. For these LoS, the tool is right, it has been confirmed by Monolith. If you have an other question, please ask me. 1 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carquinyoli Posted August 20, 2019 Report Share Posted August 20, 2019 1 hour ago, Pamplerousse said: Hello, I was in summer vacation. Sorry for the delay. (I'm not an employee of Monolith, I'm doing it on my spare time). @Johnnymaxx About the elevation informations, we plan to do something from the start but it takes some times. I'll write here when I have more informations about that. @Carquinyoli About the subway map , 1) Z-D LoS touch the wall, even if it's just a little, it's how the rule works, that's why Z-D is wrong and Z-between the 2 wagons is right. 2)There are 3 ways to have a LoS : - 1) Separated by an orange line It's not OK for Z-A line - 2) Centers of zone share a letter It's not OK for Z-A line - 3) You can draw a line between the 2 centers without crossing a wall Z-A line cross a wagon wall, so it's not ok. So there are no LoS between Z and A For Z-B and Z-C, a letter is shared. All the boards have been double checked by Monolith but a mistake can still be there. For these LoS, the tool is right, it has been confirmed by Monolith. If you have an other question, please ask me. Thanks for answering Pamplerousse! What I don't understand is why ZD and ZC share a letter but not ZA, when the situation looks pretty similar. I mean, if I don't use the tool, how would I know? The criteria used for sharing or not a letter. Thank you again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamplerousse Posted August 20, 2019 Report Share Posted August 20, 2019 4 hours ago, Carquinyoli said: Thanks for answering Pamplerousse! What I don't understand is why ZD and ZC share a letter but not ZA, when the situation looks pretty similar. I mean, if I don't use the tool, how would I know? The criteria used for sharing or not a letter. Thank you again! I think you mean ZB and ZC who share a letter dans not ZA. The letter is here for 2 kinds of LoS : Disambiguation - the LoS is valid but there is wall so they add the letter to confirm that the LoS is valid Add exceptions - a LoS which is not allowed because a wall is crossed but with the difference of levels, the designer wants to have a LoS between these 2 zones. The potential explanation is that ZB and ZC are more elevated than ZA. About how can you know without the tool, just by following the 3 steps in my precedent message : An orange line between the 2 zones, a LoS exists. A letter is shared, a LoS exists. A line which doesn't cross a wall can be drawn between the 2 centers, a LoS exists. (To see what is called a wall, you can look at the map rules at the end of mission book) And if you think it's sometimes tricky (Like the Z-D one), the LoS tool is here for that 😉 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carquinyoli Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 Hi all! I come back here for another doubt, this time regarding to Crime alley map. Why there's no LOS here, between Batman and the guard on the roof: According to LOS app there's no LOS between these 2 areas, but I do not understand why. What is blocking LOS? The wall on the left of the car is very low so cannot block it... any clue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radulf Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 The wall is blocking the LOS. There is no defined "height" for walls. If a line of sight goes through a wall, it is blocked (unless there are shared letters in the two areas). We also stumbled over that wall multiple times already, but according to the rules, it blocks the line of sight between the two miniatures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carquinyoli Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Radulf said: The wall is blocking the LOS. There is no defined "height" for walls. If a line of sight goes through a wall, it is blocked (unless there are shared letters in the two areas). We also stumbled over that wall multiple times already, but according to the rules, it blocks the line of sight between the two miniatures. I am afraid not: On screenshot above that same wall that is NOT blocking LOS from bottom-left roof to the car's area (which is next to the wall) or to the tiny area between the car and the bottom building (and LOS markers do not share any letter, so they see each other - without the wall blocking - as in my previous message). So I'm afraid there must be something else we are missing, or it's badly indicated on the app. Because looking only at the board (without the app) you would say that there is line of sight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radulf Posted January 14, 2020 Report Share Posted January 14, 2020 The car at the wall has the letter B, just like the roof, the area above the car has a shared E with the roof and the LOS to the area below the car goes below the wall, thus the car and the areas above and below are visible according the rule of walls blocking the LOS. Do you have any other examples that seem to go against that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carquinyoli Posted January 15, 2020 Report Share Posted January 15, 2020 21 hours ago, Radulf said: The car at the wall has the letter B, just like the roof, the area above the car has a shared E with the roof and the LOS to the area below the car goes below the wall, thus the car and the areas above and below are visible according the rule of walls blocking the LOS. Do you have any other examples that seem to go against that? No, not that I can think of, at least for this map. But if you scroll this page upwards, I had similar issues with the Subway map. Have a look if you like and share your thoughts. I wasn't really satisfied or convinced with the kind answers and explanations from Pamplerousse (although I really appreciate the effort). Some LOS were blocked by the wagons and others, following the same criteria, were not, have a look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnymaxx Posted January 19, 2020 Report Share Posted January 19, 2020 (edited) On 1/15/2020 at 6:30 AM, Carquinyoli said: No, not that I can think of, at least for this map. But if you scroll this page upwards, I had similar issues with the Subway map. Have a look if you like and share your thoughts. I wasn't really satisfied or convinced with the kind answers and explanations from Pamplerousse (although I really appreciate the effort). Some LOS were blocked by the wagons and others, following the same criteria, were not, have a look. So, first of all I want to say that I agree with you. I feel that this is one very weird example of line of sight that was not fully thought through by the designers when addin the letters for clarification,, because thematically speaking it seems pretty clear that these two areas should have LoS to each other. However, going by the rules as written, and by the 3 steps told by Pamplerousse, the explanation is that the line crosses a wall and, therefore, there is no line of sight. According to Pamplerousse, and it is also as the rules are written, you check point by point these 3 things to know if the zones have line of sight: 1) separated by a yellow line 2) share a letter 3) a line between the spots doesn't cross a wall. In the Batman vs guard on the roof case, they cross a wall and there is no letter, so there is no line of sight. In the other image you are showing of zones that have LoS and crosses that wall, they all have a letter to confirm that. So, In my humble opinion, what happened here is that someone should have written a letter in the "batman" zone so it could share a line of sight to that roof over there, but it was not done so, and so by the rules, they don't have LoS to each other. It's the best explanation I can think of, and it is (again, my opinion) wrong, as it clearly should have LoS. Edited January 19, 2020 by Johnnymaxx mistype 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carquinyoli Posted January 22, 2020 Report Share Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) On 1/19/2020 at 5:50 PM, Johnnymaxx said: So, In my humble opinion, what happened here is that someone should have written a letter in the "batman" zone so it could share a line of sight to that roof over there, but it was not done so, and so by the rules, they don't have LoS to each other. Totally agree. I will only add that, besides adding a letter in Batman's zone LOS marker (maybe it is not necessary since it already has letter A), the same letter should be added to LOS marker of the Policeman's area on the roof... and that marker has already 4 letters (letter A not among them). Maybe their "LOS system" does not allow more than 4 letters for a marker (have you seen any area/marker with more than 4 letters) and thus that LOS was ignored... Although your explanation (human error) fits better. Edited January 22, 2020 by Carquinyoli Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radulf Posted January 22, 2020 Report Share Posted January 22, 2020 On 7/18/2019 at 8:13 AM, Carquinyoli said: Please see screenshot below with the red lines I included, that I think they should have Line of Sight. The questions are: 1) If there's LOS between Z and the area between the 2 wagons, why there's no LOS between Z-D?. LOS is not interrupted by the wall on Z (only by a millimetre, but it is not interrupted), and the two markers see each other. 2) There is LOS between Z and B/C but not to A. How so? If I didn't have the tool I would not have resolved it this way. Considering your LOS here: 1) I would agree, the LOS does not seem to be interrupted here. Maybe the whole displayed wall is considered as blocking and not only the top? Also, don't use the area between the trains as counter example, as it shares a letter with Z 2) The LOS from Z to A goes through the train and is therefore interrupted. B and C are fine, as they share a letter (E) with Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carquinyoli Posted January 23, 2020 Report Share Posted January 23, 2020 (edited) On 1/22/2020 at 4:58 PM, Radulf said: 2) The LOS from Z to A goes through the train and is therefore interrupted. B and C are fine, as they share a letter (E) with Z As I was writing my reply, I realized that my whole argumentation is based on the following interpretation of the rules: "letters in LOS markers are there to support the rules, not to create exceptions", and if that's not true and letters may cause exceptions - to the rules and board art - well, there's no point on keep going with this discussion. Therefore, I would be nice if we had an official confirmation or clarification. Since I had my reply already written (and posted), I move it on the spoiler below. Spoiler B and C goes through the same train but are not blocked... why?, because there's a letter? really? (I don't want to sound rude, so excuse me if it does). Despite what the letters say, if the train blocks Z-A, for coherence and common sense then the train should block Z-B and Z-C (so all LOS blocked, or all allowed). I don't want to believe that Monolith decided to break the theme/coherence in such a thematic game for balancing(?) reasons, when a better design/art could have avoided it (edit: i.e. drawing large broken windows on both sides of the train). That's why I think it's simply an error on the board design. The point is relying on the letters (and thus on the app). The letters are there to clarify, not to break any coherence o create exceptions. Look, according to rulebook: Quote Page 6 (line of sight marker): Some areas have one or more line of sight markers. These are used to determine if a miniature has a clear line of sight to another area. A line of sight marker can also include letters around it to facilitate this process. (see Determination of a clear line of sight on page 43) (FIG._4). So the letters are there not to create "exceptions" to the rules, but to support them. LOS app reflects the design on the board for quick checking. But the board design could have some errors, right? That's all I'm saying, just pointing out some incoherences that may be, simply, mistakes. I don't claim for new boards or refund or any kind of compensation. Maybe just adjusting the LOS app to reflect the real interpretation even if it contradicts what's written on the board (if that was a mistake). Or, if I'm wrong, give me a credible explanation. If the REAL explanation is that that letters on LOS markers cause exceptions to rules and art, well, I would be quite disappointed (and instead of a simple mistake it would be a flaw). Disappointed like my gaming-partner was when I introduced the game to him and after a loooong explanation of the rules and abilities, all very thematic, we start playing and meet this situation. And I was not able give him a proper explanation, because there isn't any. I cannot tell him "look, you can shoot through the train because there's a letter". Not in this game. Just my opinion 🙂 Edited January 27, 2020 by Carquinyoli Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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