Xaltotun

On ‎23‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 12:29 AM, Arthadan said:

Board rules, as promised. This is the version 0, just for internal use until we all agree. I think I have downloaded an old version of the map, I'll update the image with the last one but it serves to give you an idea.

 

I'm afraid I'd need a last change, just making the top of Altar Hill and Monolith Hill new areas (in yellow in the map). Perhaps Monolith Hill top could be two areas.

 

Also, it would be a good idea to draw line of sights from the hilltops.

 

Thoughts on this?

Map.pdf

If I'm not wrong, is it this what you mean?

This is not the last version of the map, anyway I'll make these changes in red, to realize what Arthadan purposed: I'd enlarge a bit the Monoliths hill top.

This way could should be good for the lines of sight. What do you think, @Florentin?

@Arthadan 
Add the yellow die icon on the rules. ...I know, it's a stupid suggestion, but it helps to visualize immediately the rule.

2 hours ago, Arthadan said:

 

First thing to fix is that the altar should follow the same rules as the fallen monoliths.

 

Waiting for your comments, guys!

I think it sounds good

On 21/11/2017 at 9:31 AM, Arthadan said:

 

Of course!

The map is perfectly playable as it is and we can use it for our "open beta" playtesting version in December.

I think in the movie Subotai fires some arrows from behind the wall, surely @Xaltotun can tell if I'm wrong or not.

 

What about my question? :

 

 

I wasn't sure about the answer to your first question... luckly @Florentin gave the best one! THanks!

I think that moving from 22 to 26 should be possible.

Honestly, I think it could be easier for to add 15 single arrow tokens: everytime the 5 arrows token on the map is swapped, 5 single arrow tokens are given to Subotai. Maybe this could help to have less sheets on the table... this was maybe a @Florentin idea.

...though @Arthadan counter is really nice!

New Tokens/counter sheets uploaded in the download section

As you can see, I kept the life potions and added one, and made 5 decoys instead of 3. That's because I had free spaces and I think it's better to have a bit more material for the tests than less.
I hope it's ok for you.

New version of the Tiles uploaded in the download section

Tokens are on the way.

7 minutes ago, Arthadan said:

Akiro tile with the Armor value adjusted to 2.

 

@Xaltotun could you please update the tiles download file when possible?

Send me the hq image, please. Thanks!

1 hour ago, Florentin said:

I begin to represent line of sight:

Note: line in yellow (not in orange) must be discussed because may be cause of trouble !

Good observations, @Florentin!

20 minutes ago, Arthadan said:

 

In the oficial maps, all conected areas have a common border line long enough to allow the crossing of a miniature base (that is, the miniature base fits in the initial area, the common border and the final area). 

 

Regarding stones, all stones but F can be crossed only by miniatures on foot because no mounted miniature base will fit on them because they are between other stones. 

Now, stone F is between  empty flat areas and we could place a mounted miniature base on it without any space issue. What I mean is if it's a low stone and we have room to place a horse base over it, then horses should be able to jump over it. 

 

I suggest this rule for black stones: 

Any miniature can jump over a black stone as long as its base can move over it, paying 1 extra movement point, or without any extra cost if the miniature has the Jump skill.

 

What do you think?

 

 

Then, we have some areas conected by a border line so narrow that not even a dismounted miniature base would fit:

 

55<-->18

38<-->40

Stone B <-->37

Stone F <-->14

 

I'm afraid this would cause confusion among players, but I've thought about some solutions that may fix this:

 

#1 Easy solution: if base does not fit on the common border line , no crossing allowed.

#2 Solution (I bet you'd like it best): only characters on foot with the Feline Grace skill can cross between those areas paying one extra movement point. 

Second one makes sense because big guys (think of Baal Pteor for example) wouldn't be able to cross the narrow gap, but nimble fighters would be able to do it.

 

Everybody agrees on solution #2?

 

I agree with solution 2: it makes more sense, I guess (I can't imagine a horse jumping over a slippery stone); all the miniatures have too large bases compared to their bodies.

By the way, I just made some small tests about movements and similar; it'd be easier for me if there was a pdf with official rules available. At least we could start sharing it by email between us.

It would be very helpful.

1 minute ago, Florentin said:

So for me stone F could not be used by mounted miniatures.

Why are you talking about usage by mounted miniatures for stone F ?

I think I'm having problems in understanding too. sorry

6 hours ago, Florentin said:

for me 63 to 22 is forbidden consequence of the "cheval de frise"

I agree with this

1 hour ago, Arthadan said:

 

Thing is it's nearly impossible to kill Thorgrim and Rexor. To begin with they are in the last positions of the River, so they arrive late to the fight (just like in the movie) and heroes are a bit beaten up by then. Also, keep in mind Thulsa Doom will never appear before turn 6 so heroes will have a good chance of protecting/recovering the Princess even after killing the "sacrified" OL character.

 

Besides, if we follow your suggestion,  heroes will  try not to kill both, Thorgrim and Rexor, so Thulsa Doom will never appear and OL's victory conditions change for the worse.

 

Anyway, further playtesting will give us the answer. 

 

 

I kind of like a final duel between Conan and Thulsa Doom with the broken sword, just like the movie. @Xaltotun what do you think?

 

 

Thanks! 

I will make my tests next week. Then I'll tell you.

On 14/11/2017 at 12:37 PM, Arthadan said:

 

In the case of minions, yes. In the case of bosses, either way is possible. They can fall on the stakes with their horses or being dismounted by the blow and then hit the stakes.

My suggest is to create the skill as general as possible, so that it can be applied to all minis, but specify the special use of it in this scenario, inside the rules.

So we everyone can use this skill in other homemade scenarios.

I think this is the game spirit: few general rules, and every scenario has his own particular ones / exceptions.

Since I printed it, I've examinated the map - as you know I'm starting to become maniac of it! - ...this is the result of my first rough tests.

Now the really last thing I want your attention for is the connection between 13 and 14:

Is it possible to move from 13 to 14 and back?

If so a bit of confusion could be generated, since there are many stakes and it seems there's a strange micro triangle area.

I imagined 2 different solutions:

1) changing the border between 13 and 14

2) deleting one stake (I made it roughly and I'm sure @Florentin will do it better):

Not sure and not really convinced... do you also see it as a problem? In case, any other solution?

@Florentin

Everything is great in the map; only to suggestions:

These two place can create generate confusion: it seems there's a triangle area on the left. I know it's a part of 14 area, but can it generate confusion? Maybe not.

By the way, I'd move the stakes on 86 quite to the left , so the movement below is allowed: infact in the movie some riders arrived using this way from the altar mound to the Yasmina's one, where they are killed by Subotai arrows.

The importance of the stakes you added is forcing to pass through 33 to arrive in 31.

Here are the changes I suggest, so you can easily see the borders I modified. I think that for the red marked zone it's a good solution.

Honestly I'm not convinced about the light blue modification... Was it better before?

What do you think?

Hi guys,

   I didn't want to enter in your conversation about the sheets, since my first object is to have material (rules and map) finally ready for the tests to begin. Infact I'm quite sure that most of the matters that are dividing us will find their solution playing. 

Some examples:

I made my print of the map last weekend and trying to make a first rough test alone, I realized some of the problem that the map as we have can generate: some you have showed me were not, some we have discussed yesterday.

I also thought that too many sheets were on the table, and that maybe the arrow counter can be easily changed in a pile of single arrows to be given to Subotai player, once he flipped the 5 arrows token on the map.

Personally I'd prefer different sheets for the characters (but only one to be used all the campaign, like in the official Monolith campaign!), and I'd prefer a fully armoured Conan, as in some of the pics uploaded by @Florentin.

Do you want to know more? It's a campaign, so it means the evolution of the characters depends on the play. So I'd have prefered that Valeria can be eventually considered in case she didn't die in the previous scenario.

I prefered not to enter in these further discussion because, in my opinion, we need to proceed step by step:

-define the general project of the campaign

-define rules for the first scenario to create;

-create all the necessary material (even roughly) to play it, knowing that it can be (and mostly surely be) changed once the tests are completed.

-test the scenario;

-rearrange map, rules, skills, equipment

-work on the alternate version of the scenario in case (in the official monolith campaign there are more than one, depending on who won the previous);

-rearrange the graphical.

-update the global project of the campaign, if needed;

-start with the next one.

So that's why my last post were focusing on map and rules.

By the way, it is true that this is not a single man project, so it'd be better to share the most; obviously sharing means to me renouncing sometimes.

But - and this is the most important - most of the decision will come only after the tests, when we will discuss and compare our experiences.

I really understand @Florentin position about a more cooperative work, as I understand @Arthadan too, who probably prefer to have a first fixed rules to start.

I hope none of you will be irked by my post. It's only my personal opinion.

Guys, we are working by messages and forum, no common motherlanguage, no face to face contact, no vocal chat, discussion, arguing face to face, no tests together.... it's hard! We need to be patient to each other and opened to each other ideas, but keeping in mind our path, and that we must move step by step...

...or the project sooner or later will abort. Be sure of this.

I repeat: I hope that none of you can feel offended or irked after my post; probably most of what I wrote was obvious, but I think needed, since something was already in the air.

If you agree with me, guys, we are probably one of the most productive team in the overlord. So let's go on fixing the last few things pending with the map and the rules and start testing.

Once the first scenario is finally ready for publishing, we can decide to change aspects of the material used.

So, keep our eyes and steps to our road map, keep ourselves open to each other suggests and wishes (that's important), but be sure that nothing is definitive until the tests are complete. Do you agree?

Hi!

Can someone explain me why the Witch-Hunters have a differnt symbol for armory, please?

1 hour ago, Arthadan said:

@Xaltotun

@Florentin

 

 

Here is my suggestion.

 

- Pallisades (chevaux de frise) cannot be crossed by mounted or foot miniatures.

- Between the pallisades we will have smaller zones (too small for a horse base) with stakes. Miniatures on foot can cross stakes zones at an increase movement cost.

- Only "bosses" (Thorgrim, Rexor and Thulsa Doom) can dismount, I thiunk if they manage to capture Yasmina on foot and move through the stakess with the movement reduction for carrying Yasmina plus the movement reduction for crossing the stakes, they should be able to do so.

 

Agreed on the last two:

- as previously agreed, the only way to reach the top of the mound for a mounted figure is the back path (yellow arrow), as we see in the movie;

You mean the top yellow arrow, I guess.

- as we know Subotai and Akiro run to the top to protect Yasmina at the end, following probably the blue or the green arrows, so it makes sense to leave a tight path to reach the top of the mound running for any dismounted figure with no penalty movement.

Yes, the lower yellow arrow should be a zone too small for cavalry to cross, with no stakes nor pallisades.

 

 

Since Yasmina ha got the Protected skill, maybe we ca leave this as it is, what do you think?

I mean both yellow arrows, as long as we add stakes between A and B areas, if we agree. It makes not much sense that 'you can pass where your base fit it': this is a simulation. 

Look at the broken walls tokens or at the door size: some bases don't fit, but even huge figures move through anyway (ex the giant serpent inside the pict's hut).

That's why I'd prefer to add those stakes, unless someone has a better solution.

It's also important that dismounted figures could move to the top of the hill following the blue or the green arrows or both, for the reasons I explained.

Anyway this is only my opinion.

@Arthadan

Maybe we should remember inside the scenario rules that mounds block the line of sight, so it's impossible to throw an arrow to the opposite side of the hill.

@Florentin

I also suggest to add a stake here:

@Florentin

Recently I've been talking so much about palisades and passing through them or less, and eventually how. Connected to this matter, is the need to surround them with white border in a proper way.
This is not a matter of graphics only; it concern the way the game could go: how to reach Yasmina?

So my idea is this:

- Palisades/stakes can't be crossed by horsemen;
- they are not easy to pass by infantry, so passing them will cost an amount of gems;

- they can't be passed by foot men carrying Yasmina (think about: this is very important point!);

- as previously agreed, the only way to reach the top of the mound for a mounted figure is the back path (yellow arrow), as we see in the movie;

- as we know Subotai and Akiro run to the top to protect Yasmina at the end, following probably the blue or the green arrows, so it makes sense to leave a tight path to reach the top of the mound running for any dismounted figure with no penalty movement.

In the map below you can see in red all the changes I had already showed you, plus the movement vectors to climb the mound.

The problem is the connection between the areas A and B. It makes sense that doom troopers could ride all the perimether of the table top, but my suggestion is to put a "palisade bush" between these 2 areas.

Compare these 2 maps:

As you can see, this would mean:

- one step more using this path;

- Having two areas (B and C) as necessary step to reach Yasmina with mounted troop.

- Having only 2 areas to defend would be easier for the heros in case.

@Arthadan

Probably the Mounted Combat rules can be put in the first pages of the campaign, before the scenarios; anyway at the moment is better to insert them in the campaign rules. I remember we talked about forbidding to dismount for the first turns. Am I wrong?

About the palisades, I think that we should allow the heroes and foot soldiers to move across, or the heros will be definitely cut off from Yasmina mound.... and how can Subotai save her with his shield at the end.

Maybe they can use the passages @Florentin left between them to move with no extra cost, or climbing them for an extra movement

Great work @Arthadan!

I think that a couple of words about palisades effects are needed.

We're almost there guys! Congratulations!

4 hours ago, Primeval said:

Or maybe just change the wording to say that horsemen may not cross a border that is a palisade, that would allow for movement through the zone but not crossing the actual palisade.

I think that a natural english speaker makes the difference! 

@Primeval is right and it's better for us to change the wording.

(Ps.can we ask you to correct our rules files eventually, please?)

But, if you don't mind, I'd apply those changes on the map anyway. It's better to keep same graphical solution for same items, and it's true that palisades split areas.

So I'd appy those changes anyway, hoping to prevent player from further doubts and confusion while playing.

Ok here's the idea.

This is our map.

I have problems in the following areas:

RED AREAS: 2, 12, 13 and partially 3, 14 and 22.
BLUE AREAS: 30 and 23

1) Areas 2, 12, 13 seem too large, from the plain to the top of the mound and crossing palisades too;

2) We write in the rules that no horsemen (or no-one, still pending) can pass through areas that cointain palisades.... but the areas 2, 12 and 13 contain palisades...

SInce areas 2, 12, 13 contain palisades the following movement should be impossible (blue arrow).

It makes no sense. Do you agree with me?

And also in areas 30 and 23 there are palisades/stakes, so is the red arrow movement impossible through 30 and 23? Does it make sense? No, I guess.

************************************************************************************

Now, look at the areas 6 and 35: what's between them? Palisades. So palisades are on the border, like they are particular areas (or a particular "non area"), anyway no horseman is allowed to move from 6 to 35 and there's no doubt about it. Am I wrong?

The idea could be:

1) surround with white lines palisades and stakes in areas 30, 23, 2, 12, 13, and partially 14 and 22, as we did with palisades between 6 and 35.

(Here's my rough attempt in red)

2) divide areas 2, 12 and 13 (and 3)

3) divide area 35 (there are monoliths between!)

( I made some minor changes between areas 23 and 24)

RESULTS:

1) The blue arrow movements are allowed (palisades do not properly belong to those areas), but take care because you are moving beside palisades and spikes! No doubt about this.

2) Areas 4, 5, 6 are exclusive palisade areas: they influence the surrounding areas and no horseman can cross them.

I hope everything is clear. Do you agree with me? Does it make sense to you?